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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:48 pm 
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Good point about the YT GK trainer.

So we're saying that full positional trainers shouldn't work on youth teamers? Therefore the youth team trainer should do a lot more? And yes, since he's training every player now rather than one, I still need a way to stop huge squads.

One method would be to make the YT trainer the same as the SS1 trainer, where he actually just chooses one player and trains him a LOT. This would encourage a smaller youth team, although the fact that there are no player limits means that you might want 500 youth players just for the potential boosts. Regardless of training, it might be something people try..... I need some kind of cap / fix anyway I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:49 pm 
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Got to pop out, but I want to recap so others can see what we're agreed on and can have their say...

All trainers do speed, but at 5x less? I quite like that though it could be an option to have only the skills trainer, to make him more important. All seems fine.

Errr, I'll get back.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:54 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
Good point about the YT GK trainer.

So we're saying that full positional trainers shouldn't work on youth teamers? Therefore the youth team trainer should do a lot more? And yes, since he's training every player now rather than one, I still need a way to stop huge squads.

One method would be to make the YT trainer the same as the SS1 trainer, where he actually just chooses one player and trains him a LOT. This would encourage a smaller youth team, although the fact that there are no player limits means that you might want 500 youth players just for the potential boosts. Regardless of training, it might be something people try..... I need some kind of cap / fix anyway I think.


Actually maybe positional trainers should work on youth players too in SS2. As you say yourself the youths will be part of the overall squad and able to play at all levels so makes sense to have them have the opportunity to receive that training rather than having exclusive youth positional trainers.

It is tricky and I don't think there is a clear right or wrong as either way has pro's and cons and either way will ultimately come down to how well you manage to balance the numbers overall (and history says that should be fine as the only reason numbers aren't quite as you want now is because of an addition to the game a decade after it came out so the basics were well balanced when you first made the game available to all).

I think a cap on numbers makes sense although any number for the cap will ultimately be arbitrary but with the ability to run bigger squads in SS2 with interchanging personnel probably be good to have the cap at around 100 rather than as low as 50.

Real clubs that can afford to run full academies tend to run with around 30 players per age group so with say 15, 16 and 17 that would be 90 so maybe a cap around 120'ish ?

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CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:56 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
Got to pop out, but I want to recap so others can see what we're agreed on and can have their say...

All trainers do speed, but at 5x less? I quite like that though it could be an option to have only the skills trainer, to make him more important. All seems fine.

Errr, I'll get back.


That sounds good to me, prevents speed becoming too easy to train and consequently makes players with speed a more valuable commodity, which is realistic.

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:31 pm 
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I think we're agreed on the basics and as you say Rich, there's probably no right or wrong on some of these, so it's just a matter of trying it and seeing what works.

I'm thinking along the lines of youth players are only trained by the youth trainer and he only works on one player (quite a big boost, I'll have to calculate it based on a sensible number of players, say 25). I think that would be quite fun for the manager, similar to the big potential boosts that they get right now. I actually enjoy looking through my status to see if I've got any boosts - it's my favourite part of SS1, along with FP finds. Also, youth players would get quite high skill increases by playing in youth matches - indeed, I think that should be the major part of their improvement, unless they get lucky with lots of potential boosts. In other words, don't have any of the senior trainers work on them. That way, the issue of loads of youth players is gone and it would be plain stupid to employ useless YP's. You want a smaller number, so they're trained more often and get picked in the squad. Oooh, I've just remembered that you pick your own youth squad now (well you can if you want), so ... well maybe that's a good thing? You can focus on the guy you're trying to train up? Again, all the more reason not to have loads of pointless players.

I quite like that, let me know if you see any flaws in it.

Oh, another idea, the training done by the youth trainer should focus on the area you've placed the player in. Again, you can freely move the players between positions in SS2 and it doesn't affect where they play in matches (you choose when you pick them). So it would be interesting to move players around into the areas that you want them trained.

The will obviously be affected by normal training routines, but I guess that's a different issue.

Oh and I still haven't thought of what to do about the training facilities :(


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:55 pm 
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Just to add, I still think it's better to have the full positional trainers do the entire squad because it's somehow less interesting to have them do the boosts to a single player. Firstly, because the boost is smaller (larger boosts for YP's just because they're YP's) and secondly because the players are more established, sometimes maxxed and a small boost doesn't seem so interesting. Bear in mind that even for a youth player, a trainer boost will only be something like 0.1 of a rating (if that) so for a full team player it'd be unnoticable. I think I'd prefer it if my skills trainer and positional trainers were just boosting the entire squad, just to keep them moving.

With the end of the upper-ratings-cap, I'd prefer to think that all ratings were always slowly increasing, even if it's just 1 point out of 100,000.

And another thing to note. We've recently been discussing how if two teams are at maxxed ratings across the board, ratings no longer make any difference, meaning it's all about tactics, formation, luck and the other minor ratings (e.g setpieces). By removing the upper cap, everyone will have to bear in mind that ratings will become more important again. Even if your maxxed player goes from 1,000,000 to 1,000,001, that's still going to start making a difference again.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Agree on all points, like the way you are taking the training.

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:09 pm 
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Here's a quick recap on what we're liking so far.... (I'll come to the facilities thing in a mo Rob). Terry the dog has come up with some ideas on our very wet walkies too :p

Skills trainer and positional trainers will train only the first team.
Skills trainer trains slightly more to reflect the fact that he's the basic trainer that you'll want, even if you skip the others. Thinking maybe that he can train every player in their respective positions, so rather than being like a midfielder trainer, he'll be more a combination of all the other trainers. E.G He'll train defenders in defensive skills, midfielders in all skills etc.

Calculation for these trainers at the mo is 5 points per level of the trainer, per rating (out of 100,000 for each rating). So 50 at level 10. Defensive trainer would be more like 40/80/40/80/10.

I'll come to speed in a sec, because it's a 'special' rating in SS and I quite like it that way.

Youth Trainer will train a single youth player with a large boost. Since he's the only trainer available for the youths (could possibly have 2, one like this and one similar to the skills trainer, but just for the youth squad.... not sure), the amount of points he gives should be about double the amount the youth player would receive if he went to the first team. So the first-teamers could get 5 points on 5 ratings for 4 trainers (per trainer level). So 100 points, or 1000 points if the trainers were at level 10. So the youth trainer would add 2000 (or maybe more) to a single player. 2,000 would be 2% of a full rating so it's quite a boost, but I'm tempted to make it more like 5,000.

Having said that, this still makes the youth trainer far less useful than the skills trainer. Even if he adds 10,000 points to one player, that's far less than the skill trainer will be adding overall to the whole squad. I think...... Then again, I like this idea, I'd love to see a youth player getting a 10% boost each week. It's kinda like a diluted potential boost, but it's guaranteed.

Speed I'm thinking should be only available in extra training as it is now. That's one thing I like about extra training, it gives you that control over a rating. I was thinking that maybe I could combine E/T with the facilities, something like 1 slot per level of facility. That would solve both problems, but then it seems a bit weak. If the facility maintenance was level x level x £1,000, that would be £100,000 for level 10 (so 10 E/T slots), meaning the rich clubs get more training (they deserve it for being rich), but they're paying through the nose for it. I like that fundamental in games - you're basically throwing your spare money at a small amount of ratings, but it can give you an edge in games.

I'm not sure if that works though. And I think the youth trainer should be doing around 10% on a single player to make sure he's worth the money.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:11 pm 
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Sorry, my replies are too long, but I'm thinking as I type :p

Another idea might be to have a 'training efficiency' rating which you can see at all times. This rating would be 100% max but will drop if your training facilities can't cope with the number of players you have. So each level of facility means you can handle 10 players. If you drop below that, the efficiency goes down and ALL training is hit with the penalty.

That feels a bit complex and arbitrary but it might work. It at least stops people having a billion players.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:24 pm 
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Yeah, Tez is an expert. I think my brain actually works better when I'm moving... probably some truth in that!

Please do chip in though, even bad ideas are helpful as they help rule things out. We've got a long way today and I'm feeling like I have some ideas. I haven't started with much except for the basics. Hopefully we can have some stuff ironed down in a day or two and I can get cracking.

And always remember, the main aim is to keep it fun but uncomplicated. Realism always comes second.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:24 pm 
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Terry has better ideas than anyone (some believe he actually does the coding and Glynn is just his human puppet) :)

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:56 pm 
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If only I could get him to do the programming for me. He's too busy eating the footballs I buy him!


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:05 pm 
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Oh and Tez also had a cracking idea, which I believe might be really good. This is regarding how a player gets his ratings boosts from a match.

Instead of adding an arbitrary amount of points, the player could get his boosts from each action (assuming the KBK system). So I'd work out the average amount of passes (for example) I expect a player to make in a match and that average amount of points that I want him to receive from a match. He'd then get, for example, 10 points for each successful pass he makes (0 if it's not successful). Over the long run, this will mean that players will tend to improve in the areas that you set for them. So if you set a player in defence and your team is continually playing long-ball, you might find that his passing isn't increasing much because so many passes are going astray (and long-ball isn't exactly teaching him to pass correctly). On the other hand, the control of the attackers might increase more as they receive more difficult-to-control long-balls.

The other advantage of doing it this way is that it benefits a player more the longer he stays on the pitch. So a sub will only get a smaller boost, as he should.

The other way of doing it is to just calculate a number of points based on how long he's on the pitch and then just assign them based on some algorithm (e.g more to tackling for the defenders). But this (the main idea) will give a very accurate boost, based on the player's time on the pitch and what he actually did during that time.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:10 pm 
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So thinking more about the training facilities and extra training. It might work out to combine the two, although this may have some flaws. The training facilities could basically be renamed to 'Extra training facilities' and their only function is to provide space for extra training. They'd be very expensive (lvl x lvl x lvl x £100, so £100 at level 1 and £100,000 at level 10) and each level would provide an extra training slot. So at level 5, you'd be paying £25,000 per week and get your usual 5 slots. If you want to spend £100,000 and get 5 extra slots, that's up to you, but you're basically throwing money at ratings (which is realistic and a good fundamental in a game, but has potential issues).

Positives - It combines both the E/T and facilities in a very easy to understand and simple way. In SS1, neither makes much sense, they just exist. It gives rich clubs something to spend money on, especially since E/T is the only way to get a real boost to speed ratings but it's so expensive that even the richest clubs will have to think twice. I could make it even more severe (lvl x lvl x lvl x lvl * £10, so only £6,250 for level 5 but still £100,000 for level 10, making it extreme to pay for the extra slots). Poorer clubs could get efficiency by keeping it down to 3 slots and just pay a few hundred quid.

Negatives - Maybe it's unfair that rich clubs get this benefit, but it's not a huge benefit really and they're paying heavily for it if they go for 10 slots.

By the way, I need to get all of these ideas sorted out before I can really commit to programming anything. I need every skill increase method worked out so that combined, a player gets something like 5 to 8 skill levels in his career.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:12 pm 
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'Extra training facilities' might be better renamed to something like 'Skills academy', although 'Extra Training Facilities' does at least make it very clear what they do.


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