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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:54 pm 
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A couple of extra things I'm mulling over....

The skills trainer is basically identical to the midfielder trainer. I'm thinking that it would be better if the skills trainer were slightly better (or maybe slightly worse since he's training every single player). Slightly better would be good because it would mean that if you can't afford the other trainers, you're just taking a basic trainer for some basic overall training. I'm thinking maybe the skills trainer could do a bit of a bonus to speed and at least train the outfield-skills of goalkeepers. The midfielder trainer wouldn't do that. Alternatively, maybe the other way around - the Def/Mid/Att trainers do slight speed boosts whereas the skills trainer doesn't.

Also considering a speed trainer but I'm not sure about that. Do they exist in RL? Seems like a slightly odd one.

Still haven't worked out how to stop people having 500 youth players just for training. Maybe dilute the effect after 50 players or so?


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:07 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
In SS1 it changes when you move him from the youth team. The rating boost only happens to youth teamers and youth player rise faster when in the youth team - for one thing, the youth team trainer only works on players in the youth team.



Actually that is a negative as it is one trainer for an entire squad rather than up to 4 for the first team. One trainer for an entire youth team doesn't make a great deal of sense but obviously would totally unbalance things further in SS1. Maybe something to consider more of in SS2 if the balance is ok ?

Glynn wrote:

In SS1, I think if you promote him to a pro before his 18th birthday, he'll lose a lot, if not all, of those bonuses. I can't remember if in SS1 they still get some general bonus just for being under 18, but they certainly lose the youth trainer boosts and I'm fairly sure they no longer get the potential boosts?



If a youth player is promoted early they lose all FUTURE bonuses as part of the youth team, not all bonuses (makes it sound like their skills regress :) ). They don't get a general bonus or the potential boost for being under 18 unless part of the youth team.

Glynn wrote:

In SS2 it'll probably be simpler because a youth player can be played in your main squad without promoting him anyway, so there's no reason at all to ever move him into the pro squad. He'll automatically move when he's 18. So he'll always get the trainer bonuses and the potential boosts. I might add some extra bonuses just for being under 18 too. If you move a player from the youth squad to the pro squad for no reason, he'll lose all bonuses so as I say, it'd make no real sense. Maybe for the sake of realism, I could add a reason to move him but I think I'm right in saying that in RL football, you can play a youth player in the full squad without a pro contract?


In real football players sign an academy contract (they can't play for any team at any level without one from ages 9 to 16) and once 16 they have a scholarship contract whilst they continue/complete education. They can play for the first team under either contract (ie they can't be found by a club and play without a scholarship/academy contract). They cannot sign a full time contract of employment before turning 18, not legally allowed.

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:11 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
A couple of extra things I'm mulling over....

The skills trainer is basically identical to the midfielder trainer. I'm thinking that it would be better if the skills trainer were slightly better (or maybe slightly worse since he's training every single player). Slightly better would be good because it would mean that if you can't afford the other trainers, you're just taking a basic trainer for some basic overall training. I'm thinking maybe the skills trainer could do a bit of a bonus to speed and at least train the outfield-skills of goalkeepers. The midfielder trainer wouldn't do that. Alternatively, maybe the other way around - the Def/Mid/Att trainers do slight speed boosts whereas the skills trainer doesn't.

Also considering a speed trainer but I'm not sure about that. Do they exist in RL? Seems like a slightly odd one.

Still haven't worked out how to stop people having 500 youth players just for training. Maybe dilute the effect after 50 players or so?


Think the skills trainer should be slightly better so teams get a basic bonus if they can't afford all trainers.

Would expect all trainers, positional and skills to give a boost to speed but it should be tiny (should take a long length of time to get that skill up, longer than any other skill anyway).

Think diluting the effect after 50 youth players is a good solution.

Teams don't train speed as that is basically natural but teams will train players on reaction times to make them react quicker to the ball etc so in a way that is perfecting their speed, just in terms of reactions rather than the more literal running down the field aspect.

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:30 pm 
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Thanks, some useful info there Rich.

First thing, are you saying there isn't a youth team trainer in SS1? If so, why do I think there is? Maybe it's best not to answer that one :p

I'm putting a youth team trainer into SS2 though and I think it's a good idea, but it's up for discussion. I really like the idea of training youth players and I wanted it to be more important in SS1. They're still quite good in SS1, especially in Tolbury's position but the general problem with the ratings has made them less important. I hope to fix the balance so that training youth players into future stars is a feasible idea. Honestly, it's my favourite part of all football games, including SS1 where it's mostly broken :(

So no speed trainer? I'm inclined to agree, it seems a bit silly. If the positional trainers do a bit of speed training (it'd probably be 5x less than the training of skills) then that would mean that they're slightly better than the skills trainer. I'm not sure if the skills trainer or the positional trainers should be slightly better. I'm inclined to agree that the positional trainers should be, since they're specialised. On the other hand, I like the idea of the skills trainer being a full-back option for those who are focusing less on skills and more on current form / fitness / morale (which I hope to balance better too).

Re : playing youth players in the first team. It's fine to leave them in the youth squad and have them play in the full team anyway right? It's not unrealistic or anything? It does remove the SS1 issue of promoting youth players but if anything, this simplifies things. In SS2, there's simply no reason at all to promote a youth player and I'm not sure we need to add one?

And yes, your correction is correct :p A YP doesn't lose any bonuses, but will no longer receive more if promoted.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:33 pm 
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No I said there is only one youth team trainer, should be more but not a good idea for SS1 due to balance issues.

My point was your inference was youth players gain by having a youth team trainer, my point is they don't as they have one trainer between a whole squad, the first team have one for each position.

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:35 pm 
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Re : diluting the skills over 50 players. I actually don't like it, it feels too much like adding an arbitrary number.

I'm mulling over the idea of changing the youth player wages so that it's not worth it. Having said that, you could still have 500 just for a laugh or just to hope one of them gets loads of potential-boosts. Hmmm, I need to find a way of stopping that.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:35 pm 
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I also said the skills trainer should be better than the positional ones for the same reason you stated !. You seem to be reading the reverse of everything I wrote :lol:

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Glynn wrote:

Re : playing youth players in the first team. It's fine to leave them in the youth squad and have them play in the full team anyway right? It's not unrealistic or anything? It does remove the SS1 issue of promoting youth players but if anything, this simplifies things. In SS2, there's simply no reason at all to promote a youth player and I'm not sure we need to add one?

And yes, your correction is correct :p A YP doesn't lose any bonuses, but will no longer receive more if promoted.


Yes, it is fine and realistic. Clubs play younger players particularly at the lower levels all the time.

See no reason to add a reason to promote youth players, agreed. SS2 isn't set up in such a way as to need it and manufacturing a reason makes little sense.

I know my correction is correct thanks :P :wink: :lol:

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:38 pm 
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Oh right, gotcha. Having said that, do the positional trainers in SS1 not affect youth players too? If not, then I see your point. I assume the YT trainer does a lot more than the FT trainer though so he makes up for the lack of positional trainers.

By the way, I could add positional youth trainers, not sure if it's a good idea or not, something to discuss perhaps. Since I do want more youth team options, maybe it's a thought.

I've written like 5 more games since SS1 so I often get confused which one does what. Certainly in the later games, I fixed a lot of the SS1 issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:40 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
Re : diluting the skills over 50 players. I actually don't like it, it feels too much like adding an arbitrary number.

I'm mulling over the idea of changing the youth player wages so that it's not worth it. Having said that, you could still have 500 just for a laugh or just to hope one of them gets loads of potential-boosts. Hmmm, I need to find a way of stopping that.


I would argue there is no need to put in caps thinking about it. After all, the larger a youth squad longer the odds of having that trainer work on the players you want (it's the reason you had to bring in a "punishment" for having too small a youth team to try and guarantee the youth team trains the "right" players).

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Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:41 pm 
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Messages are crossing over a bit at the mo.

So for the speed training, we're agreed on the skills trainer doing speed and not the positional trainers? Honestly, both works fine, I'm just trying to work out in my head whether the skills trainer or the positional trainers should do more. It seems like the positional trainers should, since they're specialised, but since they add just as many points, it should be the skills trainer because he's the 'basic' trainer that most teams should have.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:42 pm 
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Yeah but if the youth squad trainer works on the entire youth squad, rather than an individual player then a large squad would just mean more bonuses. I think in SS1 right now he just works on one player so yeah, in that case, you don't want a large squad (people still try occasionally to reduce their youth squad to 1 player).


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:43 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
Oh right, gotcha. Having said that, do the positional trainers in SS1 not affect youth players too? If not, then I see your point. I assume the YT trainer does a lot more than the FT trainer though so he makes up for the lack of positional trainers.



Positional trainers are exclusively for first team players. They can only work on an under 18 by promoting the player to the first team squad.


Glynn wrote:

By the way, I could add positional youth trainers, not sure if it's a good idea or not, something to discuss perhaps. Since I do want more youth team options, maybe it's a thought.



Think given the size of youth squads could be a good idea BUT the concern would be that keepers would become far better than their equivalent outfield youth players as logic says any team will have less youth keepers than any other position (same reason why first team keepers improve so much easier than outfield players right now in fact).


Glynn wrote:

I've written like 5 more games since SS1 so I often get confused which one does what. Certainly in the later games, I fixed a lot of the SS1 issues.


This explains a lot :wink: :lol:

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Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
Yeah but if the youth squad trainer works on the entire youth squad, rather than an individual player then a large squad would just mean more bonuses. I think in SS1 right now he just works on one player so yeah, in that case, you don't want a large squad (people still try occasionally to reduce their youth squad to 1 player).


Yep, all comes down to if the youth trainer is working one on one or on the whole squad together.

Would say the current system (one on one) is better as youth players get the youth player boost, boosts for youth team wins etc already.

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Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:47 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
Messages are crossing over a bit at the mo.

So for the speed training, we're agreed on the skills trainer doing speed and not the positional trainers? Honestly, both works fine, I'm just trying to work out in my head whether the skills trainer or the positional trainers should do more. It seems like the positional trainers should, since they're specialised, but since they add just as many points, it should be the skills trainer because he's the 'basic' trainer that most teams should have.


Yep, went back to quoting you because of the cross over, both end up confused otherwise :)

I prefer both work on speed as it is a relevant skill to all positions but it should work slower than the effect on other skills so a sped jump is far rarer than any other skill. A defender/midfielder/attacker coach will be just as likely as a general trainer to work on a players speed in the form of reaction time as it is important to all players so I say all of them should have a (minimal) effect.

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Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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