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 Post subject: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:56 pm 
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I'm starting on the functionality of the trainers and this is one area that I think needs to be changed a bit. The trainers themselves are the same, with the same wage system but the way the existing trainers works was broken from the start, as we all probably know by now.

One major issue with SS1 is that player ratings go from 1 to 1000, so only 100 per rating. That means that even a 1 point increase from a trainer is actually a lot, given that players should increase from match experience too and a player can last for 20 seasons (600 or so weeks). Knowing this from the start, I wanted players to rise by about 1 point per rating per week, slightly more for strong ratings (e.g shooting for attackers) and less for weak ratings. But since there's nothing less than 1 (not with integer numbers at least), that didn't work. And so once trainers arrived, giving a player a minimum boost of 1 point was actually too much, hence the problems the trainers caused.

So that can be fixed in SS2 since ratings will now be 1 to 100,000, i.e 10,000 per rating. So a trainer can give a player 1 or 2 or 25 points and it will slowly add up in a more balanced way.

So here's where I need some thoughts and ideas.

There are basically two ways for a trainer to work. Let's assume a defensive trainer for this example. He can either work with a single player, chosen at random, and add quite a few points to that player. Or he can add a smaller number of points to everyone in the squad, in this case, it would be exclusively tackling and heading points.

Training a single player isn't very realistic and it also means that you're tempted as a manager to have fewer players in your squad in the hope that he trains your better players. Bearing in mind that I'm hoping to make suspensions and injuries work correctly, as well as more variation in fitness and morale, you'll be wanting slightly larger squads anyway (probably). So those two ideas work against each other.

Training the entire squad is more realistic but it does seem slightly odd that a trainer will add the same number of points to the players, regardless of whether you have 1 or 100 players in your squad. In this case though, it'll encourage larger squads, which makes sense if injuries are working. And of course, every player requires a wage, so it's not like it'll be cost-effective to just employ 100 players just to get the training boosts.

The latter seems right to me but I might be missing something, so add any thoughts or ideas below please.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:57 pm 
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Plus remember that there'll be a £50,000 trainer wage-cap in SS2 (already added). That might factor into this.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:22 pm 
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It'll work similar to the existing system, where a level 10 (bril) trainer is 10 times more effective than a level 1 (abys) trainer, but of course he's 100 times more expensive (£10,000 p/w to £100 p/w).


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:03 pm 
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I feel training a number of players at once is a better option than training single random players, this bit makes sense and is realistic in my opinion!

Just a thought though, you mentioned that he would train the whole squad as a defensive coach, would it not make sense that he could only train the defenders in your squad? This would possibly seem more realistic? You send your attackers to the art let coach defenders to the defensive coach etc.

You could also possibly set a limit to the number of players he can coach in a week say ten or so! Meaning your not getting a ridiculous amount of training points if you had 25 players in each position!

You could even possibly throw in the idea that midfielders could be sent to either your attacker or defender coach if they needed a little more intense training on those areas of their game! Or just stay with a general midfield coach. As I would assume the points gathered by a midfield coach would be the same as specified coach just spread across all 5 skills. So increasing one individual skill would take longer!

Just ramblings which can be picked apart, but thought I would chuck the ramblings down anyway!

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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:36 pm 
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That's exactly what I'm looking for Ben, since that's how I come up with ideas anyway :)

I do like the idea of the defensive coach working on defenders only. In SS2, a 'defender' is only a defender because you've put him in that position. Much like SS1 but it means less in SS2. But that works because if you want a player as a defender, you put him down as a defender and then he'll be coached in defensive skills. Which makes sense and adds a bit of skill / control to the game.

A possible exploit to this would be that you could employ a defender coach at max and just put every player down as a defender. They don't have to actually play in defence and it makes no difference if they play the match as midfielders or attackers. So you get a £10k defensive coach and put everyone down as a defender and they all get defensive coaching (tackling and heading), then you don't bother with the other coaches.

For that reason, it's probably best to have every coach work on every player. That way if you have a defender coach AND a midfielder coach, they both work on every player, so you're getting your money's worth.

Shame because I liked that idea. Let me know if I'm missing something here. Probably good that we went through this because it might have caused problems later.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:33 pm 
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OK let's think....

If a player is down as a defender surely he has to play as a defender. This would get around putting all players as a defender, as no one would want to just pick ten defenders. Also if you limit the slots available to say ten you limit the amount a coach can train. You could still have bigger squads but you may need to be tactical as to whom to train!

I agree you could have more players down as a defender and become a more defensive team over time, but that would always limit your attacking threat as the money has all gone into your defence, but maybe that's the kind of team you want to be!

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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:10 pm 
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True and I should have used midfielder trainers for the example, since they train all skills (though slightly less on shooting than an attacker trainer for example).

You don't need to play defenders in defence, that's much easier in SS2 than it is in SS1. In fact, every time you pick a player, you pick his position. i.e You don't pick 'Play / Sub / Out', you pick 'GK / Def / Mid / Att / GK sub... etc'. So if all your players were down as defenders, you could still just as easily pick a balanced squad.

So let's say you put everyone down as a midfielder and they all get trained in midfield skills (that's all skills to a lower level) with a midfielder trainer. That way, you just don't employ a defender or attacker trainer, which means you can afford more wages towards the other trainers (remembering that you're now limited to £50k per week).

I know I've just gone over the same facts, just trying to clear it up (in my own head too).

I could limit it to, e.g 10 players, which would solve it. Or I could do what I'm already doing which is to make every trainer train every player, but they'll train better if being trained by the trainer of their position. So for example, your defender trainer will have full effect when training defenders and a lesser effect when training midfielders. You could still do what I said above but then you're missing out on a full training regime by having all 4 trainers. So say you had Def/Mid/Att trainers at max, a defender would get max effect from the Def trainer on his tack/head, about half effect on all skills from the Mid trainer and a mild boost on his cont/shoot from the Att trainer.

I'm getting confused myself here so please point out if I'm getting stuff wrong. Something doesn't feel quite right about my explanation.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:56 pm 
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I think your way of looking at it is definitely going to ensure no advantages can be had by people playing the system!

The way I could see it was that a Mid Trainer gave 1 train point to all skills, however a Def coach would give two points skill to head and tackling.

So yes having everyone as a Mid and playing them out of position would mean all skills are trained every week, but at a slower pace to having a soecifoed trainer training your specific position skills.

I know the number of points now go from 1 to 10k on each skill, so the ceiling is now set much higher, but if every skill is trained every week by all three trainers will players get too close to the ceiling in all skills by retirement?

As I say am still rambling now with a few beers :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:23 pm 
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Hey, stop the beers, I need someone to confirm that my plan makes sense :p

Obviously balance will be important. The easiest way to ensure things work out is to make an assumption of how many points you want a player to rise per rating in his career (about 600 was my guess in SS1, so if he started at b/av or above, he'd finish his career on bril) and then work out how many weeks he'll exist for (again, it's about 600). So you want about 1 point per rating per week. Less for his weak skills (about half a point) and maybe double for his strong skills. In SS2, it's basically the same except it's ~60,000 points over ~600 weeks, so about 100 points per week.

About half of that should probably come from playing in matches, which is important because those playing in matches should develop faster (other games do this through match experience, but it works just as well in my opinion to do it directly through ratings). I'm not sure if I did that in SS1 but I'm fairly sure I did. Youth players get bonus ratings but that doesn't matter, that just makes them better but shouldn't change the overall balance.

So you're down to about 50 points per rating per week from training. There's basic training which theoretically could cover about half of that, so a skills session would add about 5 points per rating, leaving about 25 from trainers. Since there are 4 skills trainers for outfield players, each should therefore add about 6 points. Probably easier to just say 1 point per skill rating, so if you have all 4 at bril, you'll be slightly ahead of the curve, but missing out on the other trainers. Of course they vary depending on position, so a bril Def trainer would add say 20 to tack and head, Mid would be 10 for each, Att 20 to cont and shoot.

I think those calculations are right, I'll have to double check them. It means that if you employ all 4 trainers (excluding the GK trainer who's separate) at max, continually, you'll be getting about 40 points per week per rating. Over 600 weeks that'd be 24,000, so about 2 1/2 full ratings from the trainers. Assume 1 1/5 ratings from training sessions (which are free) over 600 weeks and about 3 from matches (if he plays in every match, which isn't very likely), so you get 7 ratings, which is about right. With the new trainer-wage cap you're not likely to have maxed trainers so you'll probably get the 6 ratings I was aiming for.

Hmmm, probably didn't need to explain all of that but it helped me work it out in my head and someone can correct me if I'm wrong now :)


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:47 pm 
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Sounds good to me, have been following the thread but couldn't think of anything to add that Ben & Rob hadn't covered 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:24 am 
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I like what I'm reading. Can I add that I think positional trainers should give the same number of points, so that other skills get a minor boost, or people will just have most people stuck in Mid. So if fifty points are available Def gets 5-20-5-20, Att gets 20-0-5-5-20, or some random distribution of a similar nature.

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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:28 am 
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It also sounds fully correct to me too!

It would have been nice not to have to control the game around people trying to get an advantage by playing the game in a way it is/was designed! It's not the way I think hence my original thoughts, but you have had so much more dealings with this and know every man/woman's traits when it comes to this form of gaming!

So yes I feel what you have stated makes total sense and sounds like a proper plan!

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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:16 pm 
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Well yes, people do try to game the system, so I have to work around it. Plus people will accidentally stumble onto advantages just by experimenting, so it needs to be as balanced as possible.

Re : Jelly's point, yes, that's also true. There needs to be X amount of points for each trainer, basically some multiple of 5. Midfielder trainer will be 1 on each, Def will be 2 tack / head and 1 pass.

One thing this thread has made me realise is that I need to make the ratings 1 to 1M, i.e 10 sets of 100k, since I'm already wanting to use half a point ratings. So the defender trainer would be as Jelly said, something like 5/20/5/20/0 with the Mid being 10/10/10/10/10.

Another couple of thoughts have occurred to me. One, the training facilities haven't been mentioned. These need to factor in somewhere. I have a feeling that in SS1 they just work as an extra boost of points each week. Bearing in mind that everyone just maxxes them out, I need to find a way to factor them in.

Also, one problem with this current idea is that a manager could, theoretically employ 500 youth players, since their wages are so low and possibly get a profit from them. So some kind of limit does need to be put in place. Rather than a straight limit on the number of players who can be trained, I'm thinking more along the lines of diluting the numbers if you have too many players. So the base amount would be 50, after that you lose a small amount of points for each extra player. Which is both realistic and prevents one way of gaming it.

If you guys can think of a way of implementing the facilities, let me know. One way might be to say that at level 10, all training is 100%, at level 1, all training is reduced to 10%. That seems a bit extreme but the basic idea might work. The problem with the facilities right now is that they're so cheap to maintain that it's basically a no-brainer to just have them at max (this happens in a few areas of SS1, it would be good to have some balance / thought involved in those decisions).

For now, I'm going to fix the ratings a bit, make them 1 to 1M.


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:41 pm 
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Yep, agreed. In fact, I'm considering just scrapping everyone's existing training facilities if teams are moved to SS2, since everyone has them at level 10 anyway so nobody will be punished more than anybody else. As we've said, they're a no-brainer and therefore completely pointless and boring in the existing game.

Having them work in conjunction with other training is probably the best way forward, but also making them very expensive. All training should be expensive, effectively you should pay more than £1k to get a player to raise in value by £1k. That way, balancing your budget becomes important. Again, right now, you can just end up with endless money and it has no real purpose if you reach that stage.

Same can be said for treatment facilities, but those are easily fixed. I might also add a physio as a trainer and it will be a really simple calculation, i.e Treatment facilities + physio level = chance of reducing an injury by 1 week (each week). That works, gives the manager control over the situation and is nice and simple.

The other trainers should be considered here too because they should all be useful, perhaps even vital. So when considering training values, you'll have to bear in mind that if you spend £40k on the 4 trainers, you only have £10k left for other trainers who are vital (e.g fitness trainer and counsellor who I intend to fix too).


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 Post subject: Re: Trainers
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:01 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
if teams are moved to SS2


Mark mentioned a while back on the other thread about the specifics of teams moving across as if that is the desire then the current changes may not sit well.

On the one hand with all the extra levels of skills in terms of numbers the new version will either instantly have too many stars with some/many of the teams that transfer (something I know you don't want Glynn for obvious and very valid reasons) or else managers will have to accept their player's skills being quite literally reduced (hard to imagine most managers will have any interest in that at all regardless of how good SS2 ends up being).

On the other side in terms of managers having to manage finances more in the new version that is great (in terms of say having x to spend on trainers) but any challenge in terms of ground facilities costs and management may become moot as presumably any teams moving over will take their finances with them and most managers (well apart from Woody and Glynn himself based on recent conversations :wink: ) will be able to afford to have the best facilities regardless of cost.

Only way to avoid that would be to reset finances upon entry into SS2 in which case it will probably make SS2 incredibly unappealing to many teams who have built up their bank balances.

Realistically I would imagine at this stage for most managers when it comes down to it there will be a number of obstacles (which are actually needed to avoid SS2 becoming a clone of SS1 in ways - finances and all brils - that Glynn clearly doesn't want) to just carrying all aspects of a team across so for most it will be a case of treating SS2 as a completely separate game.

Can't see a way around this without you Glynn being unhappy with the finished game and in terms of wishlists etc for SS2 I agree with Mark that we really need to be fairly clear about what SS2 is really trying to be, a replacement for SS1 or an additional game.

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