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 Post subject: Match engine options.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:53 pm 
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I'm going to start on the SS2 match engine soon and I have a few ideas bouncing around, so some opinions would be welcome.

Probably the best option would be to copy (as close as possible) the SS1 engine over. Bear in mind that it won't be an exact copy due to the way the different languages work and the fact that parts of the SS1 engine are so bad that I simply refuse to copy them over. Still, I could get it fairly close. This has some major advantages, which I think will probably win the vote, but let's see.

Firstly, it's much easier for me. The SS1 engine works very well in terms of generating results. Considering that this is a football game which is all about results, the amount of complaints I get about results compared to more trivial aspects of the game is surprisingly low. And let's face it, the results MUST be recent or nothing else will work.

Secondly, you guys will probably prefer it since a major change to the engine is just too risky and considering the alternatives, it seems best to just stick with what works.

The downsides of the current engine are as follows.

It's TOO simple for my liking. That's mostly a good thing because it's much easier to get it to churn out decent results and minor problems with your team (e.g a single weak player) won't throw the whole thing out just due to a few random numbers. SS1 pretty much avoids this by combining players into 'moves' usually, so it's rare that a single player will wreck everything, unlike my Sunday morning career :P

The problem is that a weak player actually should cause problems (he still does, but he'll tend to be diluted by the players around him - which I suppose should happen too).

One alternative is the 'kick by kick' system where the ball is basically moved around between players based on what they're trying to do. This is a good system as it means every player gets every rating tested over and over. For example, player A passes to player B, testing A's passing and B's control. Player C attempts a tackle, testing B's control (plus strength and a bit of speed maybe) and C's tackling. I like this system but it's more likely to throw up odd results due to a bad player constantly getting the ball and making a mess of things.

Considering the complexity of a ME, I'd rather not try the latter then find myself having to rip it all out. Though I have to say, the more passes / moves it makes, the more likely it is to average out.

One other advantage of the KBK system is that I can store what each player does in a match, for you to peruse. I know we didn't want to over-complicate the new game, but I do think that studying stats for matches is quite a good thing in a football game. It's not like it'd be vital, you can pretty much guess what the stats are by the quality of the player, but it's still fun in a game in my opinion.

The biggest problem with the KBK is that I'm not going ahead with any 'sidedness' options for reasons mentioned before. So when a player is tackling another player, it'll basically have to pick the tackler at random, based only on his Def/Mid/Att status. So you might get a tackle attempt from player A, he fails, the ball is passed twice, player A attempts a tackle on a different player. It seems slightly unrealistic in that players tend to be sticking to one opponent, but the tacklers will be popping up all over the place. Game-wise I quite like it and obviously in real football, it does happen but it might seem a bit chaotic without any sidedness in the game.

Very long ramble, hope a few people can read through that and offer some thoughts :)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:56 pm 
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Oh and a third option is a sort of hybrid. Do various 'combined' moves, combining for example the entire midfield and mix in a few individual 'Player A v Player B' bits.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:10 pm 
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I am in the opinion that results are most important, so agree getting that right is key! However I feel I am like yourself in that having a few stats thrown in would make understanding results better! I have always wanted realistic and genuine assists within the game, so if the KBK method is only way to generate player a passed to B and B scores, then I'd like to see that!

However if a more simplistic hybrid method can gain same results then this is equally as good in my mind!

At the end of the day (got to throw a football cliche in) I am sure we all want the game to generate realistic results, and also not to complicate the programming too much!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:27 am 
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I think I'm not too concerned in 'how' you achieve the end product, as I wouldn't understand the implications of any answers we give. However, the 'what' is most important for me - clearly results, but also things that we put on the 'wishlist'. Assists is on there, as an example, so if we could get them included that would be great - how you get them there is definitely over to your wizardry :-)

Just pleased to hear you are back in the programming mode. A web-based version of the game would be amazing. I've got a few mac friends who would join in - poor Paul has to send his to me for me to resave into a PC version at the moment, I'm surprised he has hung around with me pestering him each week to get the text file to me.

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Last edited by jelly on Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:44 pm 
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I am actually inclining towards KBK because it's not really that much more complicated and the issue about the same player popping all over the place making tackles will be diluted by the law of averages, plus you're not going to see every tackle anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It will average out, each player will have an average amount of involvement, so much like SS1, it will just be all the numbers crunching together to generate a movement towards goal. It's basically just the same thing, but broken down into smaller pieces and with more stats.

When it comes to the possible problems between this and SS1, I am trying to keep everything close to SS1, but anything that changes will need to be balanced. I intend to do that through testing and then just tweak and tweak until things are right.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:17 pm 
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I like the KBK idea, but if it's going to be too much of a drag for yourself to get going with then I'm fine with the SS1 model.
My main wish is (as John said) to be able to see assists etc. so I know if that lazy ar**d striker I keep putting in is helping out or having a fag on the sidelines.
Also to know if we would have more choice in formations and who to choose for those changes, defensive/attacking Mid etc. (which we could use the extra stats for)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:19 am 
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If I do go for a hybrid sort of system (though I'm still inclined towards trying the KBK, I don't think it'll be as hard as I thought), I'll at least register the assists, missed-penalties, shot takers etc. It would at least be nice to know who missed shots, though that could be a bit misleading (then again, as a manager, that's for you to work out).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:49 am 
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Yeah, gives us a bit more idea than at the mo :D

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Barton Blitz......WPL 53 Mancs F.C......WPL 64 Wigan Wildcats....Opal 58
Swinton Pirates ....ELZ 24 Dinamo Petrovac....ELZ 54
Manchester Dragons...RH 17 Stonefield Cobras ...RH 26
Luosto Tunturi...WS 7 Locomotiv Leigh. ...NSA 18 Limone Sul Garda .....BS26
Trafford Rhino's ...MOA 10 Tyldesley Panthers ...MOA 38


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