Soccer Star

Soccer Star forum
It is currently Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:42 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


This section is only for discussing a rewrite of the original Soccer Star game.



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:44 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 405
This issue came up in SS1 a long time ago and it was fixed by having a hidden maximum amount for AM players. It's not a very good system because nobody knows the limit and the limit itself is just an arbitrary number. The reason the limit was added was to prevent cheating, where a player could buy a £1,000 player for £100,000,000, thus transferring money around the game.

It works, but it's not great. I have an alternative, but I'm going to run it by you guys to see if I've missed anything.

So the idea is to remove the buying limit altogether, but the receiving team can only receive the maximum amount. So let's say we settle on a maximum amount of 10x the value. If the player is worth £1,000 and the maximum bid ends at £20,000 (20x his value), the selling team will receive the maximum possible (£10,000) but the buying team will still pay the £20,000 it bid. The £10,000 excess is just lost.

The problem I see is that some people will be upset that they didn't get the full bid. They'll see that the player went for £20,000 and they only received £10,000 and be annoyed by it. There'll have to be a message somewhere in the game, explaining this, every time it happens ('You received £10,000 as the bid was over the maximum limit' or something).

This is for SS2 only. I don't think it'd be a great idea in SS1 because some people have large banks and would be able to buy the best players by simply bidding far more. Then again, that would reduce their bank balance and it would soon level out. Still, that's for another discussion, if people think it's worth discussing. For now, do people like the idea for SS2, or see problems with it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:02 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Asleep in the grass
One problem that could happen is when a manager makes a mistake and types too many digits. At present their bid will clearly be in excess and refused, in SS2 the bid will be accepted with the full incorrectly typed amount going from the bank and possibly bankrupting a club.

Can put in checks during the bidding process so managers can make sure they have their bid right but even then someone is bound to mess it up and lose their money sooner or later.

Personally I think the current system in SS1 is better than this alternative as I can't see in your description why exactly it is needed or more importantly how this is an improvement ? Just seems like a way to theoretically hope to have money extracted from the game (rather than shared between teams) although my hunch is most (if not all) of the time managers won't go anywhere near exceeding the limit anyway.

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:21 pm 
Think i would stick with a limit as you have in SS1 or completely remove it all together,not keen on clubs bidding for players and then only a percentage of the money goes to the selling club and the rest disappears..just doesn't sound right to me :)


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Asleep in the grass
Agreed, sounds like change for change's sake rather than to improve the system or fix anything.

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:49 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 405
The issue with SS1 system is that nobody knows the maximum amount. It's 'around 10x' but I change it from time to time. Let's say you guess that today it's 11x and the next guy guesses that it's 11.1x, but it's actually 11x. He bids slightly more but loses out because he goes over the limit. It feels like a guessing game and it HAS to be an unknown amount otherwise people will just bid exactly the limit and guarantee that they'll win (actually in that case, whoever bids at exactly the limit and is last in the list will win).

I can see why nobody will care for £5M players, because nobody is seriously going to be wanting to bid £50M, but for a £100,000 player, you might want to bid high (let's say you have a huge amount of money and you just want him for some reason).

It's just messy this way. People accidentally bidding too many zeroes - we discussed that the other day and there's a confirmation box now. I can't just remove the limit altogether and give the entire lot to the selling team due to the cheat possibility. Also you can't bid more than you can afford, so the odds of someone typing in £100,000,000 when they meant £1,000,000 isn't likely to happen. And on the very, very rare occasions that it might happen, I CAN just alter it in the database. The reason I mentioned it the other day is because I don't want people just constantly making mistakes and constantly demanding that I go into the database. The confirmation box should remove 99.9% of errors.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:53 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 405
And as you said, people aren't likely to go near the limit anyway. And on the rare occasion that they do (i.e someone bids £1.1M for a £100k player) it's unlikely that they'll lose much (i.e £100k in that case). And let's face it, bidding 10x the amount for a player is a slightly odd thing to do anyway so as you say, it'll probably never happen and if it does.... well the selling team shouldn't be getting that amount of money. I'd immediately be suspicious of any large deal like that. With the limit, the selling team gets £1M (more than they would have hoped for) and the rest is lost.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:55 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 405
Oh and one more thing, I do need to keep changing this arbitrary limit in case anybody works out what it is. I don't want to have to do that for SS2.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:01 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Asleep in the grass
I already mentioned the confirmation box, just that unfortunately people aren't that observant half the time and whilst it will correct a lot of potential errors it won't correct the percentage you think, people are just too fallible and unobservant to get that close to 100% :)

More on point the limit works fine as no one is working out the limit as evidenced by the players selling over the years, be they stars or squad fillers no one is going for max value unless the max amount has on occasion been crooked numbers (eg 11.22x rather than 11 as no one is selling for exactly 9, 10, 11x their value - I know as I am sad enough to keep an eye out for bids that appear to fit a perfect number (namely one that is divisible by the original value).

Hard to believe anyone is going to bid 10, 11x a player who has such a low base value in the new game, would require managers to think of the players in a way that they will find quite alien I imagine as a player's true non-cash worth would have to be vastly different for anyone to go that large on a £100k valued player.

For the record it is far more likely that a £5mill player goes for £50mill than a £100k player goes for £1million, people will want the star and will pay well over the odds for them, they won't pay well over the odds for some £100k fill in. In the nicest possible way I think the problem to a great extent here is you have little practical knowledge of the market as you have basically ignored it as a manager and your thinking about how it currently works and how managers look at players is pretty much as wrong as possible (REALLY don't mean that rudely or nastily but the entire argument is ignoring everything that has ever happened on the market since it's inception).

I agree the limit to stop cheating has to stay, and I agree it has to be a guessing game to prevent the max bid just winning on auctions.,

However, your example for why this limit could be flawed has literally never happened in SS1 and there is no reason to believe it would happen in SS2 either.

Sorry, but it still feels like an unnecessary change as the reasoning is flawed unless you can see a way that SS2 is so fundamentally different to SS1 that managers are suddenly going to do a 180 on the way they rate players in their head when evaluating them. :)

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:06 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Asleep in the grass
My (as usual :oops: ) long-winded reply came in before the two succinct replies above from you.

The arbitrary limit as you say has to be changed but surely you can just code that to change at intervals that only you know with random values that you set (minimum and maximum multiplication range). No reason this can't just be coded rather than require manual updating by you surely ?

As to the bidding 10x the amount for a player and you being suspicious of it comment that rather proves my point about you having little working knowledge of the market as a manager (the manager bit is the point, as obviously you know how the market runs just not how managers use it) as I have seen multiple times where the bids have been in that vicinity (I myself have bid in that range) on players that are worth a lot to start with. Supply and demand (as Marc likes to say) means prices of the best young players are astronomical right now and a few managers are fully prepared to bid £40mill for the right player and no doubt as time passes that will be £50mill.

None of those bids were ever dodgy, no money laundering or similar, just managers who have run their clubs well fiscally wanting to get star young players.

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:16 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 405
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the unknown limit is a serious flaw, even though it might not be a practical flaw if nobody has ever actually bumped into it. But in that case, nobody will ever bump into the new issue. The worse that can happen in SS1 is that you miss out on the bid entirely. The worse that will happen in SS2 is that some of the buyer's money will be lost.

The only issue that I can see is whether or not we actually want people bidding 50x the amount on a player, just to get hold of him, because that would now be possible. If we actually WANT to limit bids (which we agree that we have to to avoid cheating) then it has to be done one way or the other. I don't like the SS1 one at all, there's guess-work involved. There won't be this way.

The problem with changing the bid amount via code, is that it will inevitably change while players are already on the market (since there are always players on the market). So the limit could be different for different bidders. Again though, since this is likely to be rare-to-never, I don't see if that matters much.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:18 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 405
So if players are bidding £40M on £4M players, that means that we are already close to the limit. So it probably is or soon will become an issue. In which case, the new idea will remove the limit altogether for the buyers (which is good for the buyers if they want to do that) but won't make any different to the sellers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:32 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Asleep in the grass
Actually I said we were close, specifically in the vicinity. The limit, be it 10x, 11x or whatever is not that close to being reached yet as we have had one bid just north of £40mill and he was valued past £5mill (so a little under 8 x value), and whilst that may sound close it isn't as managers currently (even those with large bank balances( still have their own valuation system of what they consider too much and no one has yet even come close to going any higher than that. :)

Your idea doesn't so much solve the situation but actually make it far easier for managers with large bank balances to guarantee they are highest bidder. At present managers just decide what they are prepared to go to and bid as late as possible and hope to win a player.

With your system if I for example really wanted the player listed and he was at £4mill I could just go "ok the limit is probably 10 or 11x the value so I will bid 12x the value and then I am guaranteed the highest bid".

The current system you have to know exactly what the limit is to be able to bid the max, you have just made it easy to bid max and therefore guarantee the player is yours barring others doing the same. Sorry but your idea doesn't solve an issue (as your idea of an issue hasn't actually happened in the market which has been around for many years now) but just makes it easier for those with big bank balances to guarantee winning a player.

Oh, and whilst you might think if managers bid big then they soon run out of money there are two flaws with that argument. Firstly, managers who bid that big don't get to do it too often as the quality of player required to make such a bid warranted is beyond rare on the market. Secondly, managers with really large bank balances got there because they are good at generating money and spending a big sum isn't an issue when you know you can re-build the finances better than some/many others. So in effect the big balance clubs tend to keep big balances and your system just means they can pay few extra million and be guaranteed the best players on the market, whereas now they can guess the limit but unless right they can be outbid or have overbid and lost out.

I really don't see how your idea is better sorry and like you say we will have to agree to disagree on this as I am using what is actually happening on the market and has always happened and you are imagining a market that doesn't exist yet. Doesn't mean you are wrong as SS2 could result in managers behaving differently than they do in SS1 and your idea of how managers would bid could come to pass, all I can guarantee is that none of the SS1 "problems" you describe exist in SS1 at this point, doesn't mean you aren't right that in some time in the future they may exist or in SS2 they may. In other words I am right now but you could be eventually :lol: :wink: :D

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:34 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Asleep in the grass
Glynn wrote:
So if players are bidding £40M on £4M players, that means that we are already close to the limit. So it probably is or soon will become an issue. In which case, the new idea will remove the limit altogether for the buyers (which is good for the buyers if they want to do that) but won't make any different to the sellers.


I'd argue it would make a difference to the sellers as we have had one manager reply so far and he doesn't like the idea of any part of the bid not going to his club if he is selling a player. Early days yet as just one manager's opinion (one I share but I don't count :) ) but will be interesting to see if others don't like the idea of missing out on some of the bid generated for one of their players.

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:46 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 405
But if we're close, then it'll soon be a reality. 8x is close enough for me.

When I say there's a 10x limit, that's not the limit you can bid, that's the limit that the seller will receive. So when you say this makes it easier to bid the max, that's not possible because now there will be no max.

Yes, if the rich clubs are constantly making money and will quickly replenish any money that they've lost, then this could be seen as a problem, because the poorer clubs (the selling team isn't necessarily poor though) aren't getting as much money as they could. But then, they're not in SS1 either. In SS1, the seller receives 10x (say for now that's the limit) and the buyer pays 10x. With SS2, the seller receives 10x, the buyer loses 50x (if they bid that much). So the rich clubs will get poorer.

I'd want to balance the finances anyway to ensure that rich clubs don't replenish that fast. But at the same time, this goes into the 'Should the big clubs be allowed to be powerful' type discussion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:52 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:17 pm
Posts: 2769
Location: Asleep in the grass
8x may be close enough for you but the reality is it is still a long way off of any limit at present as the difference (say it is 10x) is such a large sum of money that no one is prepared to pay that amount for any one player. If in doubt ask the managers who have those sums, be it myself, Mike W, Chunks, Dave L to name just a few (of many). There have been a couple of "star" players on lately but the fact is they still don't generate bids past £30mill (players valued in the £5.5mill range so a long way off of even 8x). One bid has been just north of £40mill and that manager doesn't see the need to bid that amount anytime soon (I should know, it was me).

I would say as far as "big clubs" goes, they only become big clubs through their manager's actions so hard to stop that if a manager is adept at winning games, or transfer deals, or building finances. The finances are balanced in SS1 but still some managers can't get a club into credit and others are rolling in money.

All those managers had the same starting point financially, just some are much better than others at the fiscal side. Hard to see what you can do to stop a good manager at the money side as no matter what you do is going to hurt those who lack the same abilities far more ultimately.

But anyway, that is indeed another discussion. :D

_________________
Cheers
Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group