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This section is only for discussing a rewrite of the original Soccer Star game.



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:51 pm 
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A few points to make, I'll just answer that one first though - remember SS2 is a total rewrite so little anomalies like that one with strength won't be present anyway. Actually, although the AM is similar in some ways, the storage of players is entirely different. SS1 has a terrible storage system, partly limited by the space available on the floppy disks but mostly limited by my stupidity at the time.

In SS1, when a player goes onto the AM, he's copied into a new file, deleted from his old team, then copied back into his new team. I'm not sure why strength isn't copied over, maybe I was trying to save time / space or it was an oversight (seems unlikely since strength is re-created at the new team).

In SS2, players are all stored on a single database and just have a pointer to which team they belong to. When they go onto the AM, that just changes to zero, then changes to their new team ID when they're bought. The player isn't altered at all during that time, so it's not a copy of the player you're receiving, but the exact same player, in the same place on the database. Bear in mind this is just computer babble anyway, a 'copy' of a player is exactly the same anyway, assuming all of the ratings are copied over exactly.

But anyway, all of the ratings will be identical since the player hasn't even moved. I do intend to make strength a bit more important anyway, it's a bit of a wasted rating in SS1.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:05 pm 
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I didn't mention something very important when I started this thread (it hadn't actually occurred to me), which may change your views on how the new AM should look.

When you received your SS1 turn, the AM you see is a hard-copy of the AM as it was when the turn was 'printed'. If you look at it 5 days or 5 years later, it'll still show the same market, now out-dated. This isn't true in SS2, because your SS2 turn is generated whenever you log in to your team. So you're seeing the updated AM all the time, regardless of which league you're in. This has some important implications.

Firstly, it means that you won't need to have teams in several leagues, or ask other managers or ask on the forum for the current state of a player on the AM. You can just log in to your team the following night, or more likely, the day before your turn is received, to check the updated status.

I think this is mostly a good thing (unless people are taking on teams purely to see updated markets, which means the game will lose managed teams and I'll lose money, but that shouldn't be a consideration). The main reason I like it is because everybody, even those with 1 team (and there are still quite a few of those) now has the same ability to check the updated markets.

The only downside that I can see is that some people may feel like it's a bit too much work to have to check back the day before their league is received and then update their bids. But that's still far less work than managers currently do, by asking around etc. Some choose to do it, some don't.

But then this leads onto the question (again) of whether or not the market should be blind or visible. There are now two options, but it's different when you take the above into consideration....

Visible market - If it's visible, then I think we're all agreed that we don't want an Ebay-style market where the bids are live and you have to keep refreshing and bidding right up to the final minute. I don't want that and I don't think any of you do. So if the market is visible, then your bids will have to be saved and received when your league is received - just as it is now. The difference between that and SS1 is that under SS1, you may or may not have access to the latest bid. Under SS2, you'll probably want to do your bidding on the evening before your league is received (there's no emails, so it won't be a matter of resending anything, you can just pop in and do AM bids separately).

This is very similar to SS1 and actually a bit better (in my opinion) in that everybody now has the up-to-date AM's if they want it. It does mean that managers may drop teams, but that shouldn't be a consideration.

This is also slightly harder to program, but no big deal.

Blind market - Much simpler all round, it's just a straight blind market as discussed before. The above actually makes no difference to the previous discussion because, since the AM is always blind, it'll always show the same thing, regardless of when it's generated.

So, based on this added info, which would you prefer? The SS1 style market which shows the latest bids, but to really benefit from it you 'need' to check in for the latest bids? Or a totally blind market?

Apologies for the long explanation, I hope at least a few of you read this because I want to get it finalised.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:09 pm 
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Please make a cup of tea and read the above, I need at least a couple of opinions :)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Still prefer the blind market but during the early days of SS2 the bids will be lower than they are now because of lower bank balances

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:20 pm 
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I know it's not important but I also prefer a blind market. It's far easier to program, which isn't important, but what is important is which is more fun (and maybe easier) for the manager? With a blind market, it's always guess-work (which can be fun). You also won't need to keep rechecking or timing your bids. You just send in your bid whenever, since you never seen any updated bids.

The only less-fun part (imo) is that as the seller, you won't see the increasing bids, which I'd definitely enjoy.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:21 pm 
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Remember we may actually transfer teams over to SS2, so bank balances would come over too. But I don't think that affects blind-bidding anyway. If big teams want to spend £50M on a player, somebody else benefits (we haven't really discussed limits yet).


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:00 pm 
Still think i prefer the blind market,we will all be in the same boat so it won't favour anyone...however its no deal breaker if the majority prefer something different.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:04 pm 
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Despite my personal dislike of the blind system it is preferable to the visible option as posted above.

Simple reason, whilst we can all see the latest bids it will basically change from an advantage for those who have a team on the last day before a sale to see the bid (as now) to a manager who has time to look at the market the day before the sale (admittedly not an advantage through paying for extra teams but will benefit those who can go on on the last day see the current bid and bid with that knowledge).

Would be better to have blind bids for the last week/altogether than that as ultimately no real change from the current system other than managers don't have to pay you for extra teams to have the advantage (so you lose out too).

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DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:11 pm 
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The blind market is definitely simpler. You just put your bid in whenever you want. No need to check prices (since you can't see them).

The visible market is similar to what we have now. If you put the work in, you'll get an advantage of the latest prices and you can update your bids just before your league is received. Sounds like work to me but people do it right now, so I need to find the balance between work and fun (in the game).

Rich's post came in just as I was submitting (never noticed the new forum does that, I like it). So yes, the issue now really seems not to be fairness, so much as whether or not we agree that a manager should benefit from extra effort. It sounds fair that he should, but I'm not sure that's true. It's a game after all. It would mean that, to benefit, you really need to log in on the day before your orders are due, to put in a competing bid. And if you plan to compete, you'll probably feel compelled to do so, which doesn't sound right to me. Blind bids are nice and casual :)

The thing I don't like is that the seller can't see the latest bid on his players. I'm mulling the idea of allowing the seller to see the bid but I'm not sure if that would allow some sort of cheating. Not so much cheating as favouritism. You could tell somebody you like what the bid is, to ensure he gets the player. Then again, you can pretty much do something similar with private bids anyway, i.e sell directly to people you like and not to those you don't. So I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:29 pm 
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Either everyone should know a bid or no one. Open to far too much abuse, be it selling to preferred managers by tipping their hand with the knowledge of the latest bid or indeed conning a manager into putting in a larger than necessary last gasp bid to win a player to boost the money coming in.

The latter would only work once if the buyer chose not to bid based on the info and found they had been lied to but a lie becoming clear and obvious to all hasn't stopped some of the cheats over the years so best not to give them a chance..

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CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:35 pm 
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Yeah that's a good point. It sounded dodgy straight away anyway. It's just a shame to lose the fun of seeing your player rise in value. It does also change the nature of an auction, though I'm not sure if you'll end up getting less or more this way. I think I'd naturally bid as high as I could afford, on the assumption that other people would.

So the only issue really is whether or not we want to reward effort, i.e logging in later on to make sure your bid is competitive. As I've said, I don't like it and it'd feel too much like you have to do that. But if people have other opinions, let me know.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:04 pm 
Agree with Rich,think that could allow for some very difficult moments on here :)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:04 pm 
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Whilst out for my evening walk with Terry the dog, he came up with another issue.

Should there be a limit to how much you can be bidding at any one time? Let's say you have £10M in your bank and you plan to bid £10M on a new defender. You see 4 candidates on the AM, all ending at the same time. Do you put a £10M bid on each of them? What happens if all 4 go through and you end up £30M in debt? Actually that wouldn't be toooo bad, so long as there are some fairly hefty punishments for being in debt - you could just sell 3 of the players back in that case. Or should I limit the amount you're allowed to bid on your bank balance?

This would apply to any style of market, blind or otherwise. Can't it already happen in SS1 (though I don't think I've seen it actually happen).


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:37 pm 
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That was a lot of reading.

Perhaps the seller could just know how many managers have tabled a bid, or watched the player, so there is some excitement target like ebay selling?

A don't have a strong opinion either way on this, but good to hear peoples viewpoints.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:40 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
Whilst out for my evening walk with Terry the dog, he came up with another issue.

Should there be a limit to how much you can be bidding at any one time? Let's say you have £10M in your bank and you plan to bid £10M on a new defender. You see 4 candidates on the AM, all ending at the same time. Do you put a £10M bid on each of them? What happens if all 4 go through and you end up £30M in debt? Actually that wouldn't be toooo bad, so long as there are some fairly hefty punishments for being in debt - you could just sell 3 of the players back in that case. Or should I limit the amount you're allowed to bid on your bank balance?

This would apply to any style of market, blind or otherwise. Can't it already happen in SS1 (though I don't think I've seen it actually happen).


Another similarity to eBay... Don't limit it, you just have to live with the consequences just like you do in real life. As you say, players could be sold back again.

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