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This section is only for discussing a rewrite of the original Soccer Star game.



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:49 pm 
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Again, SS2 only, none of this applies to SS1.

I've just added the auction market in it's raw form and have come across a few problems / ideas / possibilities, but can't really decide on a final setup because they all have a few issues, including the existing setup in SS1.

As it stands in SS1, the AM is very simple but has a few flaws. One is the age issue which isn't an issue with SS2 anyway because players have more accurate birthdays. The main issue for me is the way the auctions end when a league is received and the selling player belongs to that league. This causes the issue that you've all got used to, where some leagues have an advantage and some have a disadvantage, depending on when the auction ends. I realise that this evens out so nobody has any advantage overall, but actually they do. People who are able / willing to find out the best bid just before they send in their orders, either by asking managers in other leagues or running a team in that league, have an advantage over somebody who just runs one team and doesn't communicate, since he'll only be able to see the bid from a week ago when he had his previous turn. Whilst this may seem like a case of 'He should do his home-work', I don't like it for that reason - he shouldn't be forced to if he doesn't want to - and I've already been told off several times for planning ideas that cause managers more work (I happen to agree with that now it's been explained to me anyway).

One thing that's occurred to me whilst programming SS2 is that your bidding can be 'live', since you're effectively connected to the database (at least you are momentarily every time you type in an order - in other words, each time you make a change on the page, it connects, updates, then disconnects again). This leads to the possibility of live bidding, but that's a no-no because it would be far too intensive - those willing to sit around at 5 minutes to midnight bidding would gain a huge advantage here - effectively it would be the same as bidding on Ebay towards the end of an auction. It would also mean people constantly refreshing the page which would probably cost me a small fortune.

So the only 'solution' that I'm seeing so far is to end the auction 'blind'. This would mean that the final week is purely blind bidding so that nobody has any advantage or any idea what the best bid is (except the final bid before it went blind). You would bid 'live' for this but it makes no difference because you'd never know if your bid is the highest, so there'd be no point or reason to bid more than once.

I know this probably might not be popular, which is why I'm looking for ideas and thoughts because I don't like the existing setup at all.

So, throw your thoughts and ideas below please, even if they may not sound workable. A combination of ideas might be solution.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:08 pm 
Personally i don't like the auction market,i would just open up the transfer market so that players can be sold for the highest bid as in real life,obviously those with the most money would initially be able to buy the best players but there will come a time when poorer managers will sell players for large amounts and be able to buy better players themselves.As it stands now the first bid usually gets the player but i think it would be more interesting to see managers bid against each other for the player..maybe limit the time a player can be on the market so it doesn't go on forever.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:15 pm 
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Yeah, that's pretty much the best solution that I can see right now.

Rob, you're saying you don't like the auction market, but isn't your idea very similar to an auction anyway? Actually I'm not seeing a different, when you say open up the transfer market. Actually I'll probably just do away with the transfer market altogether as it serves no purpose now that I can see. It would be best to have a single market along with the option for managers to their own private deals (which is pretty much how it works now anyway, does anyone even use the transfer market any more?).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:21 pm 
Yep sorry Glynn i meant the transfer deals on the forum..however i guess that only benefits those who visit the forum,what i'd like is to be able to sell a player for whatever i liked(no max limit),that might negate the need for an auction market.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:27 pm 
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There's the option of completely de-coupling players from their league when they go on the AM and having the entire market received on a certain day (e.g Saturday when no leagues are played). This would require a separate little program but it's not really an issue. Of course, in that case the final week or so of bidding would HAVE to blind, otherwise the 'last' league (e.g the MOA) would have the advantage every time.

The only reason that players are attached to their leagues now is because the AM was added when the game was still run on separate floppy disks, one for each league. It's quite messy and actually requires extra programming to do it that way. The newer method would completely remove the player from his team (SS1 does that anyway, actually SS1 deletes and recreates the players with the identical ratings, which has caused a couple of errors, e.g injuries), process the entire AM at a set time and then the players would be added to their new team / money changes hands, when the bid has finished. This would mean that players could reload their team on a Sunday to check how bidding finished, if they don't want to wait for their next turn. Not sure how much bandwidth a single turn is going to be but hopefully it's nothing major. Or I could just have the players process with their old league as it is now, but even then, managers could log in after bidding has received to check final bidding.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:32 pm 
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I see what you mean Rob. I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on that. Personally I quite like the auction market because it's a sort of 'hands off' way of doing deals without having to communicate (some people might like that). And it's pretty clean and simple. Though I do see your point about having several types of market and ways to deal and that does seem messy.

The forum dealings aren't really anything to do with me, it's just a way for you to communicate and let's face it, it's the best and most convenient. If they weren't there, you could just communicate by email / phone etc and I think this type of deal is one of the things that most managers enjoy the most about the game (personally it's my least favourite, from a programming perspective because it's messy and not very 'gamey').

I could / might remove limits anyway. I'm certainly removing a lot of them. I think I've already realised that there were two ways to go with the game - make it super-strict and gamey, so that cheating is completely impossible (my preferred choice, but it'd wreck the game as most people enjoy it now) or have it more 'open', which makes cheating possible. The solution to cheating however is to have deals monitored, by everyone and have them reversed if they break certain rules. Personally I hate it but it's the only way to have an open system like the one SS already has. In which case, I could theoretically just remove all limits but you'd still have to pass the anti-cheat rules for each deal.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:34 pm 
What about putting the player on the AM for maybe 7 days and managers can make just one sealed bid and the winner gets the players at the end,over time players will have a value and managers will know the ball park figure for that player in a particular position.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:38 pm 
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I like the idea of blind bids because you would not need the 4 week wait. Could be all done in 2 weeks

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:56 pm 
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If you have teams for checking on the AM then that does sort of confirm my point. Whilst it's good for business, and actually good for the game, it's not a good mechanic and should be phased out. Every team, regardless of league, should have the same information in my opinion.

I do agree about the limits. There are either limits or there aren't. Since we've settled on the open deals system, then there have to be limits. Hard limits in the game and then anti-cheat limits to complement them. So yes, not much point changing that.

I'm not sure why the players are on the AM for 4 weeks anyway. It doesn't make much sense, though maybe it did when I was writing it. I understand that people like to advertise their players, but the market itself should do that, especially now that the markets are sortable on the page. Still, people will probably still want to advertise. But yes, if the AM is going to be blind, either for the duration or for the final week, then it doesn't need to last so long. Either 1 or 2 weeks, completely blind, or something like a week (or two) visible and a final blind week. What I've never understood about the AM as it stands now is, why you'd bid in the first few weeks anyway, unless you're trying to inflate the bidding (which is against the rules anyway). Surely it just makes sense to wait until the final week and then bid higher than the existing bid?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:17 pm 
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True, and since the forums are now integral to the game, and would be for SS2, then advertising can and will always exist. But two weeks sounds like enough for me. If there's a visible week followed by a blind week, it would, in a way, make an early bid more interesting because everybody from that point on would need to beat it. Though I'm not quite sure why you'd want to do that (other than deliberately inflating the price for one of your own teams, which, as I've said, is considered cheating). But then, this is probably true of all auction systems. I'm not sure for example, why you'd bid on an Ebay auction until very late, surely you're just raising the price of the item?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:28 pm 
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There's a game I'm playing that has auctions. It's true that I'll bid on items at their minimum value, just in the hope that nobody else will bid and I'll get the item cheap. I can see that working for Ebay too and also for Soccer Star. Bid £1 above the original bid price and hope nobody ever bids. That's fine and I can understand that. But I still don't see much point in putting on a very large bid early, if it's big enough to scare people away then presumably you could just bid that amount at the end and they won't compete anyway?

Actually, in the game I'm playing, it has the option to bid your maximum price (I think Ebay does this now too) and it just keeps bidding up to that price if other people bid. That's fine for Ebay and the game I'm playing, but I don't like it for Soccer Star as it only really works for people who are sitting at the keyboard and watching the bids take place. Not something that I want for SS at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:30 pm 
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Well that would work for blind bidding, I think, you just wouldn't see it. Say you put in a max bid of £2M and the nearest bid is currently £1M, it would just set it at £1M and you wouldn't know until it's completed. I still don't like it though because that's robbing the seller. With blind bidding, you have to sort of guess and take risks. You might bid way too high, which I think is fine because the seller benefits.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:49 pm 
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Yeah indeed, they crossed over.

With the new system of course, there'll be no emails and however it's done, your bid will happen automatically - i.e half a second or so after you click the 'bid' button. If it's blind, the bid will just immediately go into the system (assuming it's the highest bid). If it's not blind, it'll have to be stored along with your team and then applied when your 'orders' go through. That's tricky though because it means that visible bidding would have to use a different process to the blind phase, which is going to be fiddly to program. Which makes me just want to make the whole thing blind :P

The blind phase does also relieve the worry of having to wait until the last minute. Theoretically, my servers could go down just as you're bidding and you could miss the bid. But with blind bidding, there'd be no reason to leave it until the last second anyway.

I realise that it's more fun to see the bids come in - and this is a game after all - but blind bidding seems to hold most of the answers right now. It would be a very different auction market though than the current one. I know that people play the game in different ways - some don't do any private deals at all and would benefit most from a blind auction probably. Others may prefer the current AM but I really feel that it needs to be 'fixed' somehow.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:44 pm 
I used to play a game that had blind bidding almost on a daily basis for new players and it worked fine,sometimes you paid over the odds other times a bit under,most managers will be controlled by their clubs bank accounts,i still think there is a fun element this way and by only having a week or two at auction for each player it will speed things up which will be good in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:39 am 
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Just to confirm strength is re-assigned at present in SS1. It should result in a player arriving after being bought with a strength rating of below average or average.

Agreed, it should be retained on SS1 and should be clear (even though the strength of a player thankfully does not have the effect it used to have and was exploited in the past).

I had assumed this would not be the case in SS2 but good to raise it just in case !

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