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This section is only for discussing a rewrite of the original Soccer Star game.



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:41 pm 
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Just to add that means the new game won't be anything like the game you played so having similar tactical options added doesn't mean it will be a game you won't want to play as it still won't result in the same game play as the game you used to play (which was clearly badly coded), just a tactical option that looks similar but without the game deciding effect to it.

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CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:49 pm 
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Also, the idea of cancelling out the other managers tactics isn't necessarily a bad thing, though I can see why it might be if the game design was poor. If one manager says 'Play defensively' (because he wants a draw) then it's natural that the other manager would say 'Play aggressively' as a direct counter. That's not really a bad thing and it would happen if you were 'live' at the game - both managers would probably do exactly that.

I'm working on the subs right now so I'm trying to get a simple, but fairly flexible idea going. I can always improve on it later anyway, but it'd be nice to get some basic ideas in place. Right now, I'm thinking, 7 subs, 1 condition per sub (identical to the current SS conditions, i.e just W/L/minute) and 1 named player to Swap with (that part I have no idea how to do on the turnsheet right now though, but I'll find a way).

As I see it, with 7 subs, this means you could go with 2 from each position for varying circumstances, e.g 1 Def to Swap with a Def (after X minutes, just for fresh legs) and 1 Def to Swap with an attacker/Mid if you go into a lead and want to play defensively. Seems pretty good so far and it's fairly simple and there may be other tactics that you can work out, just from those basic options.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:55 pm 
Charscot wrote:

Glynn would never allow one tactical aspect to dominate like that so worrying about it is not necessary :)

Rich if that's the case I look forward to playing the new game :wink:
I wouldn't want to put Glynn off from doing what he wants with the game,its just these tactical changes were basically the deciding factor on winning or not and because they were so important it did become more about negating other managers tactics.
I prefer a more basic tactical game as I found the alternative more like FM but that's my problem :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:00 pm 
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More basic actually makes a canceling out more likely, not less :-)

Glynn won't let tactics become so easily cancelled out completely.

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:21 pm 
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As Rich will tell you, I'm very much against having tactics be the dominant factor anyway. We had a bit of a chat about it a year or two ago and I felt that it should be a secondary factor to player ratings (I still do, and it still will be). The talent of your players will be the dominant factor, followed by things like tactics and formation. Although as I pointed out at the time, since most teams are similar in talent anyway, that tends to mean that tactics become more important. But you still need to get a solid squad first and foremost. This means that whatever tactical options we go with, they will be more of less important, based on... what I just said :P


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:39 pm 
At the end of the day Glynn I don't want to be negative about the new game as I want to play it.My experience of changing tactics during the game wasn't a good one,as I recall taking a 1-0 lead was difficult to overturn because from that point on everyone could negate each others tactical change...maybe that was just poor programming and won't be an issue with the new game...pretty sure it won't be.
Besides this is a good place to discuss concerns and views on the game..even if those concerns might be misplaced :wink: :)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:29 pm 
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That's the point of me posting these threads mate. I do have ideas of my own and I'm fairly firmly set in some of them, but most of it is just ideas and I'm flexible. My original idea was horribly complicated and I've been reined in by you guys, which is a good thing on every level (it's made the programming of the game much easier which is good because I might actually complete it :P ). Plus hopefully you'll all enjoy it. So your input is vital. Quite a few times, people have expressed their views and after some thought, I've found that it's a better approach. So feel free to say whatever you want, even if it sounds negative (obviously be polite if you're being negative, which everybody is anyway :P ). I want to create a game which will be played and enjoyed but at the same time, iron out the issues with SS that I don't like. Most of them are fairly easy to fix without impacting the game badly and in some cases, they'll be a big improvement. Obvious examples are the browser based system, the removal of most of the game limits, e.g on numbers or players.

I think I can find a decent compromise for this sub issue. It does sound like the problem with the game you played is that the tactics were too strong. For me, I always think tactics should push your team in a certain direction, not actually dominate the game. For example, if you play defensively, your team will be 10% more defensive and 10% less offensive (just example numbers). It's not huge, it'll just sway your team in that direction.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:59 am 
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Yep, I think to an extent the issue right now is that Glynn wouldn't agree with me completely :lol:

However, given the choice of myself and many others being genius managers who defy the odds on a regular basis with inferior teams or tactics being of greater importance I go with the latter.

I do think part of the discrepancy in opinions is more to do with the examples that often get put forward. Specifically, an all abysmal team is not going to have a hope against an all bril team but a team of goods to very goods (which is what most teams will be at at the very least VERY quickly after being taken on by a manager) can easily beat teams that are higher skilled if they get the tactics right and/or the opponent gets their tactics wrong.

More relevant to this thread you raise a good point re teams in SS2 as if skills are going to be more important than they are now then the discrepancy for newbies will be far greater than it is now. Right now the biggest issue for newbies is the perception that they can't compete, which sees many leave when the reality is they can compete if they get their tactics right.

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CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Charscot wrote:
As we have all been asking for it for years (and has been the mainstay on the wishlist) safe to say everyone will want it and learning by our own mistakes is always good :)

Round about way of saying sorry Dave but it is hardly yuor idea so you still have to wait a while :wink: :P :lol:



It was nice while it lasted :( :(

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Dave.
Barton Blitz......WPL 53 Mancs F.C......WPL 64 Wigan Wildcats....Opal 58
Swinton Pirates ....ELZ 24 Dinamo Petrovac....ELZ 54
Manchester Dragons...RH 17 Stonefield Cobras ...RH 26
Luosto Tunturi...WS 7 Locomotiv Leigh. ...NSA 18 Limone Sul Garda .....BS26
Trafford Rhino's ...MOA 10 Tyldesley Panthers ...MOA 38


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:41 pm 
This is probably more of a reflection of my management skills but I have lost to poor unmanaged sides when my team was full of exce/bril players,on paper I should murder them but something else must be coming into play and I guess that can only be tactics.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:52 pm 
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Yep, sorry Rob but that is you :-)

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(189T)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:59 pm 
Yep I thought so...just thought i'd check :wink: :)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:24 pm 
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No, the tactics won't be any more or less important than they are now. Well, I'll be rewriting it so the match engine won't be identical, but I'll keep similar calculations.

It's really a matter of interpretation. The point I'm making is that ratings are far more important than tactics BUT, since ratings are usually so close (even between 'good' and 'bad' teams), then ratings aren't as important as I'm suggesting. What I mean is (and Rich already said it), a team of all abysmals almost certainly won't beat a team of brils, even if they did the best/worst possible tactical combinations. As I said, and this value is plucked off the top of my head, tactics are about 10% (maybe 20%) of the value of your squad, but since your squad ratings are probably already very similar to the other squad, tactics are therefore more like 100% of the difference (although luck will also play a part).

In case that's not clear, let's say your total ratings are 10,000 and your opponents are 10,000. Your tactics 'beat' the opponents tactics and give you a 1,000 bonus and give him a 1,000 penalty. Now your ratings are 11,000 and his are 9,000 and you'll probably win. So even though the ratings are 90% of the total value, since they're identical to your opponents, the only thing separating you is the tactics. So from that angle and in this example, the tactics are hugely important. But remove all your best players and follow the same pattern and you'll get slaughtered anyway (probably).

I just made all those numbers up and the engine doesn't work like that anyway, but it's one way of interpreting it. The current engine basically works by looping over and over and doing lots of little 'battles' between sets of players (Def v Att, Mid v Mid etc). At every calculation, tactics are applied to the situation if they're applicable, as are random numbers. Eventually, if you 'win' enough of the battles, you'll get a shot on target, then another 'roll' is made for the quality of the shot (depends on the player's skill, plus some randomness), then another roll is made by the keeper to see if he can save it.

As I said, I'm rewriting that whole thing anyway. It won't work like that, it'll be a 'kick by kick' system, which is similar but doesn't do group-battles, it'll be more a case of endless player v player battles. Again, tactics will be applied constantly as will random numbers. Hopefully, at some point it will generate similar results but will have more details stored which will go into the highlights and player stats.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:28 pm 
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Just to re-emphasise, in the current system, there are no blanket additions to ratings due to tactics, e.g at the start of the game. The tactics just alter the numbers during the individual calculations, good or bad. So I have no idea of the actual total impact of ratings, but they can have a good or bad affect on everything your players are trying to do.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:40 pm 
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Glynn wrote:
you'll get a shot on target, then another 'roll' is made for the quality of the shot (depends on the player's skill, plus some randomness), then another Roll is made by the keeper to see if he can save it.



I hope I've not been paying all this time for you to sit there with a couple of dice :shock: :lol: :lol:

In the end I think the fact is you have as much chance of your tactics negating your opponents tactics in the game as it is now, I can't see there being that much of a change :D

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Dave.
Barton Blitz......WPL 53 Mancs F.C......WPL 64 Wigan Wildcats....Opal 58
Swinton Pirates ....ELZ 24 Dinamo Petrovac....ELZ 54
Manchester Dragons...RH 17 Stonefield Cobras ...RH 26
Luosto Tunturi...WS 7 Locomotiv Leigh. ...NSA 18 Limone Sul Garda .....BS26
Trafford Rhino's ...MOA 10 Tyldesley Panthers ...MOA 38


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