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 Post subject: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:03 pm 
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It's just come to my attention that the auction market is not working as I intended. The AM in SS2 served two major functions.

One was to be a cheat-proof method of doing transfers. The fact is that I never had any intention of running the game manually (e.g checking transfers and reversing the ones that I don't like) so the AM is the ideal way of doing transfers. There ARE standard transfers in SS2 but I simply hid the part where you type them in, so you can't do them, but they're there in case I ever wanted to use the engine to upgrade SS1 or something.

The second purpose of the AM was to balance the game finances. This is REALLY important or finances will become insane. For me, it's the ideal solution because it also adds to the competitive element, which is missing due to the lack of normal transfers. So if everybody gets loads of money, there's more competition for bids, so bids will get higher. If you bid £20M for a £2M player, £18M is lost from the game. That was the whole idea.

For the life of me, I don't understand why I ended up giving the selling team the full amount because I never intended to do that. I don't know if we discussed it here and I was convinced to do it this way, but it's really bad. The finances will run out of control and now it's VERY easy to cheat because you just take extra teams, do massive bids to get the money to your main team and that's that.

So this needs to be changed. The selling team needs to receive ONLY the value of the player, regardless of how much he sells for.

I'm happy to discuss this, but since the game is run automatically it needs to be balanced correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:12 pm 
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The discussion of the AM doesn't appear to cover your plan re fees at all ? Seems like either you had the idea and didn't propose it or came up with it later in the process ??

It certainly explains why the market is working the way it is though as it is working the way it was discussed in this thread -

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=39350

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CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
WILLOUGHBY HUSKIES.................WPL25
FENWAY VALIANTS ....................WPL14
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(177T)
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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:21 pm 
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Thanks, good spot. As you say, I must've realised all of this later (i.e since it's been running) rather than during the programming phase.

I realise that this isn't going to be popular but it's completely necessary unless somebody can think of something better. If I give the selling team the full bid amount, no money is being lost from the game meaning that it'll just accumulate forever. The AM was the only money-sink in the game and it's the best place for it because it means you sink your money into something you want (i.e the best players).

The only other solutions would be to monitor it manually (not going to happen) or to have the money-sink somewhere else or to balance the finances again (too much work and would make the game less fun).

But even then, that still leaves the possibility of people taking teams and putting in massive bids between their teams in order to fund their main team. And that's just a straight up no-no.

So I think I have no choice but to implement it as I intended. The selling team now only receives the value of the player. And excess bidded money leaves the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:22 pm 
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Just to add that while I was at it, I've increased the number of foreign players arriving on the market from 1 to 5 since as it stands, it's getting hard to find anything to spend the excess money on anyway. I have a huge excess at Tolbury already and I haven't even made any major sales.


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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:24 pm 
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RIP to the auction market if thats the case

Why would you want to put a player worth £20m on the AM and only get £2m for him, what if your team is really old and you wanted that money to rebuild, or bring new players in to make your team better (which is the nature of the game)

All this will do, is stop good players going on the AM, and people will just build their teams using their youth team (as there wont be many players to buy on the AM), keep them until they are old and worthless then just get there value on the AM

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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Got to say I have to agree with Mike and Rob, is there no way you can install an alert when two clubs owned by the same person do deals.
I'm not familiar with programming parlance but presume there is a way as in Excell that you can link cells/clubs that shows actions .

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Barton Blitz......WPL 53 Wigan Wildcats....Opal 58
Swinton Pirates ....ELZ 24 Dinamo Petrovac....ELZ 54
Manchester Dragons...RH 17 Stonefield Cobras ...RH 26 SLFA Cup Winners 2016
Luosto Tunturi...WS 7 Locomotiv Leigh. ...NSA 18 Limone Sul Garda .....BS26
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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:12 pm 
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The thing is, this is how I intended it to work in the first place and I'm not sure why I didn't do it this way. It's not just the cheating, it's the balance issue. Without something like this, there is nothing in SS2 to balance the finances. I deliberately made the income a bit higher with the intention that you spend it on players, rather than the day-to-day stuff which takes care of itself.

Whilst I agree that it's not good for the selling club, I don't see that this makes the AM pointless. You still need the AM for buying players and surely the only players you sell to the AM are players that you don't want anyway? Does anybody actually sell good players to the AM with the intention of raising money? If you have a player that's on the fringes, is anybody likes to bid high for him anyway? For me at least, I wouldn't sell a great player on the AM ever, even if I was guaranteed a massive payout because then I'd just want to spend that payout on another great player?


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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:13 pm 
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I don't like the idea. The only benefit is to stop cheating. You either drop second teams or maybe let it police itself. No one would risk it. Or name teams: Oxted Utd (JohnLG) so people can send who bought and sold.

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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:14 pm 
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Selling good players to lower wages is another reason to ditch.

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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:14 pm 
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I think increasing slfa players is good because that money gets removed from the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:59 pm 
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Yes, you can sell players to lower wages but I don't see why you'd sell one of your best players in the hopes of raising huge amounts of money, since you'd then have to compete to buy back someone of similar quality? Even if you get the full amount, surely you'd be selling a player, hoping to raise £10M, then bidding £10M for another player? If you're selling players to the AM, you're 'getting rid' of them for one reason or another. If you're trying to raise money for a great player, you'd be selling lesser players to do so surely?

As I see it, it's needed for balance and to stop cheating but it shouldn't affect you at all unless you're selling your best players. I don't know why anybody would be doing that when there's so much money floating around.


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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Well some sell their best players in the hope they can buy 2 decent players back, makes your team better (well thats the hope) :)

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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:12 pm 
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Think you may be lacking a tad bit of imagination there to be honest sorry Glynn.

A team could have say trained up a player to great skills precisely because they knew they could make a big profit on the market with the intention of using the profit to say subsidise building work or instead of having 1 great player buying 2 or 3 very good ones.

Having the best players possible is far from the only aim in any version of a game, the idea is to build a winning side and sometimes less is indeed more as you can use that money to build a squad/ground or indeed club if using it on other things around the ground.

The best player I have ever had in SS2 I sold as soon as he turned 18 as the wages weren't realistic long term to pay out and I knew I could use that money to buy multiple lesser players that would still make my team better.

I understand the reasons behind why you want this this way whilst not agreeing with them, as you know, but I would say if the finances were THAT unbalanced surely it would have been clear and obvious ? After all without a passing comment this week on the game you wouldn't have known this has been happening which begs the question if you hadn't noticed an issue after all these seasons is there really one ?

There are other ways to remove money from the game. Make sure all foreign finds with scouts cost more than their value (most countries they already do), make it so there is a good reason to encourage managers to improve their grounds, be it on size or amenities so managers feel they should or want to improve their whole club rather than just looking at the basics of what a squad looks like.

Just a couple of thoughts, bound to be other ways, actually think most of the perceived excess money will be gone in a season with your change to the number of fp's per turn from the SLFA...

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CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
WILLOUGHBY HUSKIES.................WPL25
FENWAY VALIANTS ....................WPL14
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(177T)
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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Selling a young player for excessive amounts would work yes. That's about the only scenario I can imagine. I don't see the need to sell your BEST players to raise money for anything though, that's my point. I routinely sell 'good' players but they're not going to make it into my squad. That money can then be used for bidding or building. I definitely have noticed a huge amount of money in the game, pretty much since day 1, but the idea was to filter it out with this.

Sure, I could find another way to filter the money out, but one way or another it has to go otherwise you'll just end up with insane amounts of money. Foreign players wouldn't work I don't think, unless I made them extremely good (i.e better than the ones you find anywhere else).

Plus there's then the cheating issue.

Also shouldn't tonight's turn be in by now? I only changed the amount of FP's, but it might have broken something, although I don't have any errors.


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 Post subject: Re: Auction market.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:22 pm 
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Maybe you could give it say another season to see what effect the extra FPs you are adding to turns has and see how the finances look then ?

After all, you didn't know there was an issue so maybe it will look ok with th new additions taking some money away ?

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Rich

CHARSCOT WANDERERS.........WPL1
DEP EL CELTICO.........................WPL37
WASCISCO RED SOX...................WPL43
ZIASTE NEQUENO.......................WPL24
CASTLE ROCK FURIES..................WPL31
WILLOUGHBY HUSKIES.................WPL25
FENWAY VALIANTS ....................WPL14
OSSUS STELLA SEI.....................ELZ56
REVELSTONE..(C 05/6, 08/9)........RH15....(177T)
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